Descent of Llewellyn, Prince of Wales
Billie Harris - Sep 23, 2008
From GenForum, but as a caution, please remember that it wasn't common to give a child two given names prior to the Revolutionary War so the fact a genealogist put a name as John William Llewellyn doesn't necessarily mean there were two given names. Since this post mentions the family being in Norfolk County, VA., also see this:
[NOTE: broken link]
Re: Descent from Llewellyn Princes of Wales
Posted by: Al Cloud Date: January 01, 1999 at 16:23:08
In Reply to: Re: Descent from Llewellyn Princes of Wales by Tammy Roth of 756
In 1997 I wrote the following message to E. A. Baskerville, archivist at the National Library of Wales. Her answer follows my inquiry, and both should be self-explanatory, although leaving the principal question unanswered - can the U. S. Llewellyn line be traced directly to the Princes of Wales?
LLEWELLYN PEDIGREE
I am descended from a John William Llewellyn, born in Wales in 1695 and died in Norfolk, Virginia in 1752.
Data from the Mormon Library indicates he is descended as follows: Morgan ap Llewellyn; Owen ap Morgan; Ithel ap Owen; Gwigan ap Ithel; Jestin ap Prince Llewellyn of Glamorganshire;Rees ap Jestin; Owen ap Rees; Morgan ap Owen; Morgan Vychan ap Morgan; Rees ap Morgan Vychan, Lord of Baglan; Glim ap Rees; Llewellyn ap Reeding (married Anne, daughter of Evan ap Lyson of Baglow); John Llewellyn of Reeding (married Weulham, daughter of Saing-Heuydd); John Llewellyn of Bryn-Luck (married ?, daughter of Hopkins ap Rees ap Hopkins of Gower); William Llewellyn ap John Llewellyn (married Queuis, daughter of Hopkins David of Ywysdawer); William Llewellyn ap Llewellyn of Duffern Farms and other Lands (married Gwledis, daughter of Evan of Sir William Howell); William W. Llewellyn of Duffern (married Bregot, daughter of Lewis Evans of Llwylo at Tarnaytark, Council of Marches); Evan Llewellyn of Lanyewydd (married Elizabeth, daughter of Robert Morgan of Stormir); Morgan Evan Llewellyn, to whom "Uncle John Llewellyn" gave Gillie Galed and Glur Tenements (married Mary of Reedd Bevan of Collewnl); John William Llewellyn, born 1695 in Wales and died in Norfolk, Virginia (see preceding paragraph).
Peter Bartrum's text on Welsh Genealogies, Vol I, Page 43, and Vol II, Page 542, presents the above succession as follows: Hywell ap Rhys (K. of Glywysing) d. 886?; Owain (d. ca 930), married (Annes, Agnes or Nest, daughter of Rhodri Mawr); Morgan Mawr (d. 974), K. of Morganwg; Idwallan (Llewellyn ??); Ithel; etc. Thereafter, both the Mormon Church account and the Bartrum account agree, except of course Bartrum does not cover the succession following John Llewellyn of Reeding (married Weulham, daughter of Saing-Heuydd). The principal differences in the two accounts, other than Anglicising names, concern whether Morgan Mawr preceded or succeeded Owain, and the inclusion by Bartrum of Idwallan.
Also, unfortunately, Volume I of Bartrum's text in the Dallas, Texas library was missing pages 12 through 42, and I have been unable to determine (1) the ancestors of Hywel, and (2) his relationship, if any to Rhodri Mawr.
Any help you can give me in verifying the authenticity of either the Bartrum or the Mormon succession, reconciling the differences in the two as described above, listing the ancestors of Hywel from Bartrum's missing pages, and advising of Hywel's relationship to Rhodri will be very much appreciated. Thank you, Al Cloud.
REPLY FROM NATIONAL LIBRARY OF WALES
I write in reply to your e-mail message received 22 August, relating to the ancestry of John William Llewellyn.
You are most welcome to visit the National Library of Wales on 9th September to consult this Department's copy of P. C. Bartrum's_Welsh Genealogies_.
In the meantime I have succeeded in tracing most of the persons mentioned in your message in G. T. Clark's_Genealogies of Morgan and Glamorgan_, although the spelling of personal names and place-names was almost undecipherable. A corrected version of the pedigree as given by Clark reads as follows:
Morgan Mawr
Owen
Ithel
Gwrgan
Iestyn ap Gwrgan, Lord of Glamorgan
Rhys, Lord of Solven and of Llanilid, third son of Iestyn ap Gwrgan
Iorwerth
Morgan
Morgan Vychan
Evan
Rhys
Gwilym
Llewelyn of Reeding (Swansea) m 1 Tanglwst 2 Ann, second daughter of Evan ap Lleison of Baglan
John, third son of Llewelyn ap Gwilym of Reeding m Wenllian, daughter of Evan Jenkin ap Rees of Senghenydd
Llewelyn of Bryncoch, second son of John Llewelyn ap Gwilym of Reeding m Ellen, daughter of Hopkin ap Rees ap Hopkin of Gower
William of Bryncoch, m Ellen daughter of Hopkin ap David Hopkin of Ynysdawe
Llewelyn William of Duffryn-Clydach in Cadoxton by Neath, third son of William ap Llewelyn of Bryncoch m Gladys daughter of Evan ap William ap Sir Howel Goch
William, first son of Llewelyn William m Bridget daughter of Lewis Evans of Llwyd-tho, co. Montgomery, Attorney to the Council of the Marches
Evan Llewelyn of Llangonydd, sixth son of Llewelyn William of Duffryn-Clydach, m 1 Ann daughter of Thomas Basset, 2 Elizabeth daughter of Robert Morgan of Stormy
Morgan ap Evan Llewelyn of Gelligaled m Mary, eldest daughter of Richard ap Evan of Collena
According to Clark, John Llewelyn William, third son of Llewelyn William of Duffryn-Clydach, purchased Ynys-y-Gerwn, Gelligaled, etc. Having no issue
he bequeathed his estates to the children of Thomas and Evan, his younger brothers.
P. C. Bartrum's -A Welsh Classical Dictionary- states that Morgan Hen ab Owain, also known as Morgan Mawr, appears in the Book of Llandaf. He succeeded his father Owain in about 930 to the kingdom of Glywysing. His death in 974 is recorded in Annales Cambriae and Brut y Tywysogion. His sons Owain, Idwallon, Cadell and Cynfyn are mentioned in the Book of Llandaf. His pedigree first appears in Jesus College MS 20, `Morgan ab Owain ap Hywel ap Rhys'. Morgan's mother is said to have been Nest, daughter of Rhodri Mawr. Hywel Dda's father, Cadell, was one of the sons of Rhodri Mawr.
I do not know the source of the Llewelyn family pedigree in the LDS Library, but it contains many obvious mistakes, for example, Morgan Mawr was the son of Owain (ab Owain) not of a Llewelyn, and Iestyn the son of Gwrgan, not of `Prince Llewelyn of Glamorganshire', is a well documented person in the history of Glamorgan.
Clark is not infallible, but his pedigree seems the more accurate, especially as he quotes references from wills and other documents. P. C. Bartrum, of course, is the acknowledged expert on Welsh genealogies, and has studied original manuscripts in the course of his work.
Yours sincerely
E. A. Baskerville
Assistant Archivist
Department of Manuscripts and Records
eab@llgc.org.uk
QUESTIONS
1. Can we tie John William Llewellyn, b. 1695, to Morgan Evan Llewellyn of Gelligaled?
2. Am I correct in assuming that Hywel ap Rhys is not the same as Hywel Dda? (Assumption based on statements above in re Morgan that "His pedigree first appears in Jesus College M
3. Who was the father of Ithel - Owain (per Clark), or Idwallon (per Bartrum).
4. Clark and Bartrum switch Evan and Rhys as the parent and grandparent of Gwilym. Which is correct?
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Larry Lewallen - Sep 24, 2008
Could we use our DNA results to answer this?
Billie Harris - Sep 24, 2008
Good question, Larry. Unless we can actually trace our family back this far, then probably not. I'd sure like to though.
John Corn - Sep 25, 2008
Perhaps I can help clarify the DNA question. Y-DNA results can be used (within reasonable probabilities) to determine whether 2 (or more) people are related (by birth) through their direct male line. In other words, if one Lewallen male shares a common male ancestor with another Lewallen male. By using results from known descendants, it is possible to determine if a person of unknown ancestry is from the same family line. And, if they are related, we can estimate how recently they shared that common ancestor.
So to answer the question -
Can we tie John William Llewellyn, b. 1695, to Morgan Evan Llewellyn of Gelligaled?
we would need 2 things:
1 - DNA results for a Lewallen male who can prove (document) they are a descendant of this John William Llewellyn
* * * AND * * *
2 - DNA results from another Lewallen male who can document their descendancy from Morgan Evan Llewellyn of Gelligaled that does NOT descend from John William Llewellyn.
And, of course, from a scientific perspective, we would really need a minimum of 3 of each of the 2 categories above to verify our results.
I'm sure this sounds like an impossibility but, I assure you, it really is possible. It is simply a matter of numbers and slowly working our way back in time. If you want an example, see my article at
[NOTE: broken link]
Sheila Wingate - Jul 19, 2009
This link.... http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~medieval/llywelyn.htm takes you to the family history for the Llywelyn family starting with Llywelyn ap Iorwerth d 1282. Gives sources and is a fascinating read. He also gives his commentary as to whether or not what was recorded is right and why it may have actually been recorded incorrectly.