Carol Redd - Apr 4, 2011
Angie
I guess when I messed up and wrote Elizabeth Carter md Charles Llewellyn, it messed you up into writing that she married Green Berry Carter not Charles Carter. I think you meant Green Berry Lewellyn.
NOW, here is where I wonder if your family story MIGHT be somewhat like my own: Wondering if the family story should have been that Sally Carter was involved w/ Charles Lewellyn instead of Charles Carter. Since obviously she gave birth to two Lewellyn sons, it seems like perhaps the family story got twisted a generation later. My family story the mother was a Lewallen - really was the father who was the Lewallen. Most family stories contain at least an element of truth - makes me think Charles was the name of their father and the last name just got confused.
Billie Harris - Apr 4, 2011
I think I'm reading this right. The father would be a Lewallen.
A man has a certain Y chromosome which he passes to his sons and those sons to their sons, on down. It can't be transferred to a female.
Carol Redd - Apr 4, 2011
Yes, Billie, you're correct about the father definitely being a Lewallen. We weren't discussing dna results - rather I was conveying to Angie that just as my family story contained an element of truth, her's may also. Sally Carter was said to have been in a relationship with Charles Carter from another Carter clan. What if that should really have been Charles Lewallen? This seems very plausible to me since the dna from two of her sons tested as Lewallen AND there WAS a Charles Lewallen who seems to be a possibility at least geographically.
Angela Carter Ridder - Apr 4, 2011
I agree but it would have to be Charles Lewellan (the junior) as Charles Lewellan (the senior) was dead before sally's children were born. yes I did mean Green Berry Lewellan.
Carol Redd - Apr 5, 2011
Have any of you new Carter members ever researched Charles Lewallen, JR?
Angela Carter Ridder - Apr 5, 2011
Absolutely not as this realization of my fathers DNA matches just came to light. There are several ways that one would have to track the YDNA. Charles Lewellan (senior) had 4 sons. The only son that I found that left the state was Green Berry who went to Missouri. Time wise there could not be any other descendant but Charles' senior children that fathered Sally's children. Therefore we might have to look back in Charles past to find the link to your father. 20-30 descendants of Charles say that Daniel Llewelyn was Charles' father. So we are looking for a Charles brother that could be your father's ancestor. Anderson would be a great fit because it looks like Anderson is kin to Smiths who are showing up in my Dad's genetic matches. I am just looking at this genetically. Now historic evidence must support this premise. ( Interesting information is that Charles' youngest son was named John. But it seems he married here in Virginia and died here in Virginia.)
Carol Redd - Apr 5, 2011
Angie,
I'm not sure where you find the info that 20-30 descendants of Charles say that Daniel Llewellyn was Charles' father. Did they offer some documentation? If so,could you provide them here. Many times one person simply copies what someone else assumed and off it takes! Copying false statements is our biggest problem in genealogy research online. So, while I greatly appreciate your input and efforts to crack this case, I really need to see some documentary evidence to support such. I'm certainly not an expert on Llewellyn's... It's only been about 9 months since we got the dna results, and I have not devoted too much time to researching this.
You say:
"Time-wise there could not be any other descendant but Charles Sr.'s children that fathered Sally's children." There's possibly others. Charles Sr. must surely have had brothers who also had children in that generation. Perhaps they had family who came to visit, could easily have stayed for awhile, but maybe not long enough to show up on a census.
It's also entirely possible that your family story about Charles CARTER was actually true, and also equally possible that Charles CARTER was actually fathered by a Llewellyn. It's even possible that the NPE happened many, many generations before they even came to America.
I can accept my John Preston Sexton's father was someone living very close to them in Morgan Co, TN. And, because Richard descends from John Lewallen (1836) and we match, then it seems plausible that one of that family fathered my gr.grandfather. But that family line could easily go back several generations and still produce an exact match. These results are very broad with exact matches at 67 being true for those who are simply cousins over 200 years ago. So showing up as an exact match only means that we have a common ancestor some several hundred years ago.
It's clear that Smith connection is somewhat weak. There are 3 mutations w/in the first 37 markers. The only Smith who took the 67-marker test may be Harold S. Smith. He is 4 mutations off from my dad. This does NOT mean that he's not related and possibly even closely. William Luallen (1809) named one of his son's Smith. So, I'm not disagreeing that there is likely to be a Smith NPE, also. But, we must proceed carefully and systematically.
We'll just to have to keep digging! Thanks for helping us dig!
Carol
Angela Carter Ridder - Apr 5, 2011
That is all I am doing is digging. According to our family historian, our Charles Carter is kin to the famous "King Carter" from Virginia. However, our YDNA does not match descendants from his line as referenced from Carter cousins DNA website. You may check that out if you wish. Our group is #15.
Also there was another comment made on this blog that was stated as fact that came from the same unconfirmed siting that I used, so I thought brainstorming was allowed. My mistake. I can appreciate the need for documentation and I will not comment without footnotes again.
Carol Redd - Apr 6, 2011
Angie
Please don't stop commenting! I brainstorm and dig all the time, too! That's where some of the most monumental Ah-ha! moments come from. Personally, though, I don't believe much of what I see in family histories online without first seeing what their documentation is. I've seen far to many who have mothers giving birth at age 60 or 70 and someone else (NOT like us who dig deep to find the truth) just runs with it and then it spreads like wildfire. So, I'm hoping you'll accept my apology if I offended you in any way.
I am certainly not able to say that Daniel Llewallen is or is not father of Anderson, and I'd be more than thrilled to see the evidence if those 20-30 of Charles who say he is.
Would you mind to tell us what the comment was that was stated as fact but which might be unconfirmed? Most sites have some truths and some speculation. So, while it might have been included somewhere, it certainly doesn't mean that everything that person said was fact.
Angela Carter Ridder - Apr 5, 2011
I was thinking about what you wrote about how history gets tweeked. Some Careter family members say that the father of Sally's children was Charles Carter's son, Charles. Maybe it was really Charles Lewellan's son, Charles.
Billie Harris - Apr 6, 2011
Angela, brainstorming is fine. I have a question though. It's thought that all of Sally's children were by the same father. Can you tell me the approximate date her last child was born? Something that caught my attention when I was just looking at census records in Bedford County where Sally apparently lived all her life, I saw a Snow living in Bedford and I believe near Sally. There was a Nancy Snow who was living with Abednego Lewellyn in Tennessee. I believe they were living together without being married although they did marry and have one or two children. Makes me wonder if a Snow might have been fathered by Abednego and he was the father of Sally's children. Just a question in my mind tonight. I'll see if I can find it out because it doesn't look like there were any Lewallens in Bedford County after about 1840 if she had children born after then.
I'm NOT saying a Snow is the father. At this point, it's only a question in my mind.
Billie Harris - Apr 6, 2011
Here's what there is about Nancy Snow and Abednego Lewellyn in Davidson County, Tennessee:
1784 - 5 July: “Abednego Lewallen having been summoned to appear.... To the presentment of the Grand Jury against him for the crime of fornication...appeared and pleaded not guilty on which a jury was called, to wit: Daniel Durnam, Francis Armstrong, Elmore Douglass, Benjamin Kuykendall, John Barrow, John Boyd, Solomon White, Ambrose Maulson, Amos Heaton, Francis Hodges, Humphry Hogan and George Flynn, who being elected tried and sworn sayeth that the said Lewallen and Nancy Snow live together in one house. On which the jury with crew returned and say they do not find the said Lewallen guilty of the crime charges against him in the indictment.”
(County Court Minutes, Volume A, page 24)
Note: The date of Jan. 4, 1787 has also been given as when Abednego was charged with living in adultry and Nancy was charged at the same time as having a bastard child (A/153)
He was killed by Indians just a few years after this - maybe three or four years.
Nancy and Abednego must have married because later records show her as Nancy Lewallen.
Billie Harris - Apr 6, 2011
We haven't had anyone from Abednego's family do a DNA to date, unfortunately. so what I said above is only something to think about, and, of course, I haven't even checked on Snow DNAs but so far, we haven't been notified that there's a Snow match with the Lewallens.
Speaking of "brainstorming though," I just posted something in the History section which is a possibility for the father of Sally's children, or at least something to think about. Could her brother-in-law - Green Berry Lewallen - have fathered her children?
Angela Carter Ridder - Apr 6, 2011
I think that your theory that Green Berry might the the father of Sally's children could grow legs. If Green Berry was already married to her sister Elizabeth then Sally could not have obviously married him. Ken Carter, our family historian, wrote me that " ....As far as Sally, I have heard from several sources that she became a very bitter, angry, and contrary person later in life. In fact, one of her granddaughters (don’t remember which one, off hand; it’s in my book… I think one of Andrew Jackson Carter’s daughters) was named after her, and disliked her so much that she changed her name. "
She could have been bitter if she was in love with Green Berry and he left the state of Virginia with her sister before 1840 as the census in Kentucky possibly shows. Or if her sister was already living out of town and he left to be with her that could have made her mad. (Just brainstorming)
Darlene Luallen Griffin - Apr 6, 2011
Angela, When you have had time to read some of our postings, you will find out that several of us have found our ancestors in "interesting situations".
Billie Harris - Apr 6, 2011
Amen to that, Darlene.
Angela Carter Ridder - Apr 7, 2011
I guess covering up past indiscretions is one of the reasons that some of us are put in the position of scratching our heads. I appreciate all the efforts many are making now to uncover truths so that our children can have a realistic idea of our family history, the good and the bad. I hope that I do not seem callous to the plight of my forefathers but I approach this as a science project of discovery. All of us have painful and joyful truths. We are not defined by our isolated missteps. Poor Sally, I guess I would have been bitter too living in her shoes.
Carol Redd - Apr 6, 2011
Actually, I'm inclined to think "interesting" is understating it! Perhaps, just perhaps, they lived by a different moral code than we do today. When I first began genealogy, I was completely believing that my grandparents (and they may have been) were completely chased people. I have learned so much in the past few years that makes me know full well that men and women for all times were completely human and capable of all things!
Thus far, I know of 2 gr. or gr. gr. grandfathers who were of a different DNA than their last name suggests. That means only that either their mothers/grandmothers or gr. grandmothers were either not completely faithful or their fathers were quite the scoundrels and never married the women who they impregnated.
And, another line more than likely assumed the mother's last name - we've not tested our Osborne line from Jonesboro, Washington Co, TN.
Thanks for that little tidbit of your family history, Angie. Those deep dark secrets sometimes get unearthed! We appreciate your sharing!
Carol Redd - Apr 6, 2011
Angie, Ken, Rob
Do any of you know if your Carters are connected to the Carters of Carter Co, TN? I have Shells who came out of Carter Co and into Cocke Co, TN and married into my Brooks and possibly Messer lines.
Just curious!
Carol Redd - Apr 6, 2011
Angie
Have you ever learned where the name Green Berry originates? I have a Green Berry Brooks from Cocke Co, TN.
Billie Harris - Apr 6, 2011
Carol, I've come across so many Greenberry/ Green Berry/ Greenbury given names and in so many lines. I would guess some of them came from Nicholas Greenberry who lived and died in the 1600's and was, if I'm not mistaken, the first governor of Maryland. He left children but I've never researched his descendants.
Robert Carter - Apr 7, 2011
Hi Billie... your research abilities are amazing! Thank you for your efforts! My brother, Ken Carter is our family historian. It would be good if he could join in these discussions. For me, the simpliest explanation can be the correct one.
1) If we know that our Carter line (Sherman Carter, Will Carter, Berry L Carter Jr, Berry L Carter Sr, Sally Carter) is an exact DNA match prior to 1830 to the Llewellyn's and
2) That we have a connection for Sally Carter and her brother-in-law, Green Berry Llewelyn and
3) That the Bedford, County Virginia Records show that Green Berry was indeed in Bedford County from the 1820's thru 1832 including census records that show more the one child.... hmmmmm
4) Could it be that after moving to MO with his wife, Elizabeth Carter and having one daughter, Green Berry moves back to Bedford, Va without Elizabeth and daughter; lives with Elizabeth's sister, Sally and they have 5 children together but cannot get married as he is already married. The stigma causes financial problems for Green Berry... selling property, losing a lawsuit, counterfieting money. The children take the surname Carter. Sally hints at the relationship by naming their last son, Berry.
Carol Redd - Apr 7, 2011
Rob
Your brother, Ken, IS a member. I added him a few days ago when he first contacted me. I've sent him another email to make sure he rec'd the invite.
As far as possibilities go, I recently learned of a Brooks who lived in Hawkins Co, TN and was married, but lived with and had several children with another woman. Yes, there were legal and financial consequences for such behavior, but I guess LOVE finds a way!
Billie Harris - Apr 7, 2011
Greenberry was sent to prison 1830 and that's when Sally had her last child, right? Does anyone know if polygamy was practiced in the Carter family? So far, I haven't come across it in the Lewallens.
Carol Redd - Apr 7, 2011
Billie - where do you find all these facts? I could use a good lesson on research. Rob's correct - you're an amazing detective!
And, seriously, where did you find that Greenberry went to prison?
Billie Harris - Apr 7, 2011
The information came from Rick Lewellyn's site. His site is loaded in documented information.
http://l450.hdrecg.com/
GREEN B. LEWELLEN
4 DEC 1832, Pardon of Green B. LEWELLEN, sentenced to ten years in penitentiary for passing counterfeit money, two years of which he has served. Resolution to discharge.
Source: Report of the Virginia State Library, by Virginia State Library, published Virginia State Library, 1908, p. 225
Posted on September 3, 2008 at 7:45 pm by admin • Permalink • Leave a comment
In: Research Data • Tagged with: Green, VA
That means he went to prison in 1830 and was pardoned 1832
[EDITOR's Note: https://llewellyn-genealogy.ghost.io/untitled/]
John Carter - Apr 10, 2011
FYI, I just clicked on the link that Billie had given as being Rick Lewellyn's site, but my anti-virus program threw up a flag saying the site was unsafe. Hmmm.....
[EDITOR's Note: at the time, my site was not professionally hosted and I was a rookie at being at webmaster - no longer a concern.]
Ken Carter - Apr 7, 2011
I'm just joining in on this discussion, so I don't have much to say at this point. But Berry Lafayette Carter was born Oct 23, 1830, the last of Sally Carter's children. I do not think it likely that Green Berry Llewelyn was the father of her children. Can you imagine... in 1820-1830... having an affair with your wife's sister??? And fathering her children? Seems to me he would have been run out of town, shot, or something. I think it more likely Charles Llewelyn brother of Green Berry) would be the father, IF the father was a Llewelyn. If Charles Llewelyn were the father, that would be scandal enough. I understand he was not married. If not, and if he were the father of Sally's children, why did they not marry? Carters before me (going back to Berry Sr's children) are all in agreement that the name of the father was Charles, although they also reported that his last name was Carter. They just did not know the specific identity of this Charles Carter. Perhaps they reported the last name as Carter to lesson any embarrassment, but I think not. Keep in mind that there are several Carters on Family Tree DNA that are an exact DNA match to our Carter line. I have contacted them... they trace their ancestry back to Fauquier, Prince William, and Frederick Counties in VA, an area where many Carters settled, including many of the descendants of King Carter. If we could show a link to them genetically, this might provide some evidence of my theory that Charles Edward Carter was the father of her children. Why, then, the DNA match to the Llewelyns? I haven't a clue. But I also admit it is an intriguing possibility that Charles Llewelyn fathered her children.
Angela Carter Ridder - Apr 7, 2011
Billie,
I have that Charles Lewellen (the junior) married in 1803 to a Mary Akers.
(* abstract form book "Marriages of Campbell Co. Virginia 1782-1810.) Sally's first child was born in 1823. (we know from Ken's research) Do we know if Charles' wife might have died? There is a big coincidence that the Carter descendants have always believed that there was a Charles senior who had a Charles junior involved There was a pair Charles Carters and a pair of Charles Lewellens that fit that senario.
Someone correct me if I am wrong but I just read on Family Tree .com that if you exactly match a different surname at the 37, 67, or 111 marker that first of all it is rare and furthermore" there is likely to have been a surname change within the genealogical timeframe" A genealogical timeframe based on a close match means the change could have occurred within the last 4-6 generations. That would fit with Sally's children.
Billie Harris - Apr 7, 2011
Ken, it happened in my family and the brother-in-law wasn't run out of town but continued living with his wife as though nothing occurred. In fact, it was the female, everyone looked down on, blamed her even though she was only 16 at the time. And if you haven't read the book "Scandal at Bizarre" which involved the very well known and distinguished Randolph family, read it. Here's a short version of what took place involving Richard Randolph, brother of the famous orator and statesman, John Randolph, and Richard's sister-in-law back in the 1700's. This line of Randolphs was connected to Thomas Jefferson and to the Carters as well.
[NOTE: broken link]
So while Green Berry may not have fathered Sally's children, it did happen and perhaps more often than we know.
Could one of you tell me where Sally lived in Bedford County? Was it near Lynchburg? Was it in the southern section? I don't know anything about the area.
Angela, I don't know about the Mary Akers, wife of Charles.. Her father was probably William Akers of Lynchburg, Campbell County. The 1810 census shows William Akers on the same page as Charles Lewallen but a question came up in my mind. Was the Charles who married Mary Akers Charles Sr or Charles Jr. According to what we have, the Charles Sr. died the year after the marriage of Charles and Mary Akers..
For 1810's census, it shows Charles and James Lewallen (probably brothers)
For 1820 it shows Charles in Lynchburg which I understand is next to Bedford, and Green Berry in the southern district of Bedford with 5 people under 16, a total of 9 in the household. Charles and Greenberry were probably brothers. Elizabeth Lewallen was also in Bedford. She may or may not have been their mother.
For 1830 the census showas Sarah Lewallen, William J. Lewallen and Asa in Bedford.
For 1840 Sally (born 1770 per 1850 census), was in the Northern District of Bedford. There was also a Sarah in Lynchburg, Campbell County. Could this Sarah in Lynchburg have been the wife of Charles?
While Asa is shown in the 1830 census for Bedford, he's shown in Monongalia 1840 (born 1792 per 1850 census), as is John (born 1779), William (born 1817), Jesse (born 1796) and Thomas (born 1800). Asa was probably the same as the one shown 1830 in Bedford. I don't know if the others are connected or not, nor do I know if there's any relationship between Asa and Charles or Green or james..
I couldn't find Charles in any of the Ancestry censuses after 1820. In fact, I find no mention of him in Campbell County after 1820.
In 1835 Bedford County a Charles Lewallen married Keziah Hall. It doesn't appear he lived in that county even though he's mentioned in connection with his wife's interest in the sale of the property of Elisha Hall.
One thing you might also think about. Often children and grandchildren were named after parents. Were any of Sally's grandchildren named Charles? My guess is that you're going to find them with the name of Green Berry or Green or Berry.
So what happened to Charles Lewallen, I don't know but in looking at the Lewallens we have in Bedford and Campbell counties, I don't see any other possibility for a Lewallen relationship with Sally other than Green B.
Just a guess on my part but it seems the most logical to me.
Billie Harris - Apr 8, 2011
I'd like to add one more thing here. It would help if there was information on Sally Carter's parents and grandparents so if any of you have that family genealogy, could you post it.
The reason we may need to look further back is because of something that happened in my Randolph line which I just thought of. My Sarah Gentry married James Randolph in the mid 1700's. James died 1795 (I believe that was the year without looking it up) and Sarah remarried after they had several children. When she remarried, the marriage record shows her as Sarah Gentry, not with her married name of Randolph. So it might be good to check Sally's parents and grandparents and see if the Lewallen connection might have come in earlier.
Just a thought.
Angela Carter Ridder - Apr 8, 2011
Maybe i am confused here but if the YDNA can only go from father to son why would finding out that Sally's grandparents were Lewellens help?
Billie Harris - Apr 8, 2011
Angela, you're right. I wasn't thinking there.
Angela Carter Ridder - Apr 8, 2011
Sometimes it all runs together
Angela Carter Ridder - Apr 8, 2011
Charles Lewellen (the senior) married Elizabeth Harrison according to a few Ancestry postings. They were suppose to have been married 12/23/1779. He was suppose to have died 12/10/1804 and Elizabeth outlived him and died in 1826. His son Charles was born in 1782. If this is true and if Sally was born around 1797 then she would have been too young to have children and Charles (the senior) could not have fathered her children starting in 1823.
Billie Harris - Apr 8, 2011
No, Charles Sr. would not have been the father of Sally's children.
Angela Carter Ridder - Apr 8, 2011
I found Presbyterian Cemetery record in Lynchburg,Virginia that lists a Charles Lewellen that I believe to be Charles (the junior) who died 4/4/1826 (he would have been 44 years old) and his wife Mary Akers Lewellen was also buried there after her death on 7/29/1831. This information is also collaborated with listings on Ancestry .com. Therefore would also preclude Charles Lewellen (the junior) from being the father of most of Sally's children. Her children were born in 1823, 1825, 1827, 1828, 1830. My father, who is the exact match with the Lewellens, was the gr. grandchild of Berry Carter born in 1830. So I think we can probably conclude that neither Charles from Campbell County is the father of Sally's children. Green BERRY (Charles the senior's son) is still a possibility.
Carol Redd - Apr 9, 2011
IF... Charles CARTER, of a "different Carter Clan", as the family story goes, was the father of Sally Carter's children, then his parents/grandparents or even before could potentially be Llewellyns. This is what we'd want to chase after... Charles CARTER's brothers lines would confirm or deny Llewellyn DNA.
If Lew dna is confirmed, then we would need to look BEHIND Charles Carter to his uncles' descendants and test another living Carter.
Angela Carter Ridder - Apr 9, 2011
That would mean several possibilities that Charles Carter's father was really a Lewellen or that Charles Carter was adopted or like you say it could go back several generations. I agree that this senario needs to be investigated. That might explain why we have close connections DNA-wise to other Carters. One glaring diiference is that our first marker is a "12" while all other Carters on the Carter cousin website are "13". Does anyone know if that first marker holds anymore importance than all the rest?
Billie Harris - Apr 9, 2011
Angela, perhaps Carol can answer that question, otherwise you may have to ask it of someone at FamilyTreeDNA. They've been really helpful when I send them e-mails.
I remember long ago asking questions to that organization and one of them was about a DNA with three markers different when comparing it with another of 37. The reply was that one marker, even two, could be mutations. With three or more, you need someone else to test from that line to verify the line.
With only one marker differing with the Lewallens, you have a match.. How many markers different are there with other Carter lines? if it's more than three, then I, personally, would be skeptical.
Incidentally, the information you found on Charles and Mary Lewallen being buried in the Presbyterian Cemetery in Lynchburg is a good piece of information. Thanks for posting it. A quick gleaning over what we have, and I suspect Charles (Sr.) was the son of Richard Lewallen in Prince Edward County, Virginia. Richard is somehow related to Anderson Lewallen and Jesse, and most of us who've had the DNA tests from those lines, are all related per DNA (though we haven't found just how), as is Carol's Sexton.
Carol Redd - Apr 9, 2011
Angie
To answer your question about the first marker - to the best of my knowledge, it holds no more importance than others.
Some markers mutate at a faster rate than other markers. If you look at the listing of the markers across the top of the results page, you'll find some markers in red. These are those faster-mutating markers. If you had 3 mismatches on those, the likelihood of being related would be stronger than if you had 3 on slower-mutating markers.
If you and Rob/Ken (whoever the other kit belongs to) will join our Llewellyn Project, I can add your test results into our list and easily see how they compare.
Also, if you'll at least provide me with your kit #'s, I would like to look at the Carter Project and see how you compare to those other Carters. I know you're R1b, but further than that I need the kit numbers to see how well you're comparing with those other Carters.
I am looking at their site now and see kit #198802 is listed as R1b1a2 showing no matches. This is the same haplogroup as most all of this Project. I'd be most interested to see how your results compare to other Carters you say you are matching.
Billie Harris - May 7, 2011
This doesn't help answer anyone's question, but I'll post it here anyway.
Angela, the postings say Charles Lewellen Sr married Elizabeth Harrison 12/23/1779. Do any of the postings say WHERE they married? The reason I ask is because in Campbell County VA 1805 James Lewallen married Sally Harrison (Quakers.) James was probably Charles and Elizabeth's son. There was a Joseph Harrison who married Sarah Gregory in Campbell County 1791 (Quaker marriage) and the internet postings show this particular Harrison family to have been from Talbot County, Maryland.
We do show some Lewallens in Talbot County, Maryland, but the last mention of one is 1744 Mrs. John Lewellen.
There was a Charles Lewellen in St. Mary's County, Maryland 1790 listed as a head of the family. Richard is also mentioned in that county in the 1790 head of household.
What we really could use is a copy of the 1804 Will or inventory or whatever there is for Charles Lewellen, Sr.
If we're looking for descendants to do a DNA, we might want to take a look in Missouri simply because of a Lewallen with a given name of Harrison.
Pike County, MO: Will of Joseph B. Lewellen, dated 23 June 1844, proved 15 August 1844/ Legatees: Joseph R. Lewellen; Daniel Smith/ Wife Sarah Lewellen
Youngest children: Eliza Ann Lewellen; Elvina Lewellen; HARRISON H. Lewellen; Polly Wright Harriet Lewellen; Enoch H. Lewellen. Daughter: Mahala Glascock
Mention of land in Ralls County, Missouri.
Carol Redd - May 7, 2011
Ken,
In that you've researched your line for many years and have knowledge of the Carter line back to Berry Sr. and all were in agreement that the father of Sally's children was Charles. Whether he was a Carter or Llewellyn seems to be the bigger question. As in my own personal family story, there is always a kernel of truth in there, but it sometimes gets twisted or tweaked. My story was that John Preston Sexton's mother was a Lewallen. DNA does not lie, though, so when we got the news that we matched with Lewallens, it was no real surprise - the family story was almost true - just the father rather than the mother was the Lewallen.
There is no question that your Green Berry Carter was fathered by a Llewellyn. Which one is the real question. IF Charles Llewellyn were the father and he was unmarried and left no other known male descendants, then we have a tough time. IF we can locate other Green Berry Llewellyn male descendants and they match, then we could reasonably conclude that we all descend from at least the same ancestors of Green Berry Llewellyn.
IF Charles Carter were, in fact, the father, then what comes into question is whether or not HIS father was a Llewellyn. This is entirely a possibility and one which requires testing of Charles Carter's brother's lines to prove or disprove HIS Carter name. If his brother's line shows a different dna, then we have to realize that with each generation there is a possibility of a Non-Paternal Event (NPE) happening.
I am not able to see the Carter matches with you since you have not yet joined the Llewellyn Project. Since you have only tested 25-markers, that level does not give us adequate information to make very relevant comparisons except within the past few thousand years. It would be helpful for you to upgrade your markers to 67 if we're to make better connections to within the past few hundred years.
When I look at Angie's and Rob's matches, I see the following:
At 12-markers: 1 mutation between Rob and:
Roger Lee Carter (Y37)
Mr. William C. Carter (Y25)
Todd Michael Carter (Y37)
Daniel Scott Carter
Darrel Burdett Carter
(all of these except Todd drop out the 25-marker level indicating too many mutations existed to make them even remotely possibly related. I think FTDNA stops suggesting relationship at 6 mutations for the 67-marker level)
At 25-markers, no exact matches,
At 1 mutation, the only Carters remaining as a match with Rob are Angie and yourself (Ken)
and Lewallens (Billie, Carol and Dan's ancestors)
At 2 mutations, Todd Carter is a match with Rob.
Then, at 37- markers, no exact matches with anyone
At 1 mutation - only Angela Carter and the other Lewallens
At 2 mutations - Todd Carter is still a match with Rob.
I would expect you to be listed here, too if you had more markers tested.
We need all the help we can get to unravel this, so please, Ken, can you help us find additional male descendants of Sally Carter, Charles Carter and Charles or Green Berry Lewallen?
Carol Redd - May 7, 2011
Results are back on Robert Charles Carters 37-markers.
Rob traces his lineage to Berry Lafayette Carter, 1830 Bedford Co, VA, son of Sally Carter
At this level, Rob is:
2 mutations away from Todd Carter (relationship to Rob??)
1 mutation away from:
Angie - William Carter (relationship to Rob's William?)
Carol -Lloyd Sexton (grandson of John Preston Sexton NPE 1859)
Billie - L.C. Lewallen
Dan - John S. Llewellyn, Newport, Wales - see email from Mary Parker(Dan's sister) below:
(All of whom are exact matches with each other)
At 25-markers, Rob is:
1 mutation from Ken Carter (relationship to Rob?) (Ken has not yet upgraded past the 25-markers)
Rob wrote:
For me, the simpliest explanation can be the correct one.
1) If we know that our Carter line (Sherman Carter, Will Carter, Berry L Carter Jr, Berry L Carter Sr, Sally Carter) is an exact DNA match prior to 1830 to the Llewellyn's and
2) That we have a connection for Sally Carter and her brother-in-law, Green Berry Llewelyn and
3) That the Bedford, County Virginia Records show that Green Berry was indeed in Bedford County from the 1820's thru 1832 including census records that show more the one child.... hmmmmm
4) Could it be that after moving to MO with his wife, Elizabeth Carter and having one daughter, Green Berry moves back to Bedford, Va without Elizabeth and daughter; lives with Elizabeth's sister, Sally and they have 5 children together but cannot get married as he is already married. The stigma causes financial problems for Green Berry... selling property, losing a lawsuit, counterfieting money. The children take the surname Carter. Sally hints at the relationship by naming their last son, Berry.
Mary Parker email to Carol:
Our John S. Llewellyn, b. Gloucester, England 1813, emigrated from Newport, Wales in.
1834 and settled in Schuylkill, Elk and Clinton Counties in Pennsylvania where he spent the remainder of his life. He married Catherine Kahley, whose ancestors came from the Palatinate area of Germany in 1720. They had 11 children, 10 of whom lived to adulthood.
Some of the children were Adam, Catherine, Susanna, Henry, Thomas, James, John, and George, Dan's and my great-grandfather, b. 1845. Catherine died at around age 45 and John S. never remarried. The son John's photograph is actually available on Ancestry.com.
The DNA results certainly suggest that your line of Lewallen's and John S. Llewellyn were from the same Welsh family, and not too far in the past. Our John S. would have been a generation prior to the John Lewallen you reference.
I indulge in this, too, and have enjoyed all the info on Ancestry and in the census records.
Our family tree is titled "Llewellyn Family Tree" and the principal person is Thomas Sylvester Llewellyn. The "Kahley" family has an extensive genealogy on Ancestry.
Our family's oral tradition is scant for the Llewellyn side. We were told Adam Llewellyn was our great-grandfather's name, but he was actually our great-uncle. Catherine Kahley's father was also Adam, so that may have caused the confusion. Adam Llewellyn had a son named George. Until we had the birthdates, we didn't know anything about John S., Catherine Kahley, or the rest of their siblings. After George's death, there was no contact with the Llewellyn relatives, although all the families lived in PA in neighboring counties. At the time of George's death, all the sisters and brothers still lived in PA, according to the newspaper obituary, so these TN Lewallen's must be their cousins.